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Seriously, I know this has been talked about over and over here and on many other forums. But the amount of "gimme code" posts I see now make me ashamed to be considered a noobie to programming. It makes me ever more hesitant to even bother to ask a question myself because I hate to be associated with that behavior.
I mean it's horribly lazy, insulting and just pure ignorant to try and grab a block of code , cut and paste into project, and then say "your code didn't work, why?"
Is it so terribly hard to do a little reading? I myself will spend at least a few days and probably read over 200 websites and blogs/posts/tutorials before giving in and asking for help.
Would it really kill some of these lazy people to read at LEAST two or three? Yeah I know I'm ranting and beating that dead horse with that same ole stick, but I read a new one this morning on CP that had two different back to back "gimmes" and it really pisses me off because I try to LEARN what I'm doing not just hack together blocks of a dozen other peoples code to make something work.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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gavindon wrote: I try to LEARN what I'm doing not just hack together blocks of a dozen other
peoples code to make something work.
Which is what the majority of people are doing nowadays, seriously good for you the less you ask the more your learn by researching yourself, that why you're more likely to retain the information.
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I've been waiting for you to say something like "Gimme da code for XXX pleeeez it's urgentz" at the end... 
Welcome to CP. 
If there is no blood involved, probably, in a few days you will be able to say that you have a new family... but... blood can appear in every single corner... don't miss the right path of the consolas font... 
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Joan Murt wrote: blood can appear in every single corner
Oh so very true.
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well I didn't even want to be associated with even Typing those words... lol I've been a member at CP for a year and half. give or take a couple months. I just recently started to even poke my head out of the sand as I just graduated in December. I now work at my first job(in IT) and managed to land a job where I am the ONLY developer at this company . seriously not one other person who even knows what code looks like. I have to design, write the code, build the database etc etc..So yeah I'm in waaay over my head but have managed to get projects done and they work. Even though I'm pretty sure my code comments would drive a real programmer crazy and that I have tons of spaghetti logic.
I do spend lots of time on CP, There are some great articles and great responses by some of the people here and I have learned a lot just by reading instead of asking. When I ask a question it might seem simple or maybe even stupid to some of you guys, but I promise when I ask one I am well and truly stumped.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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gavindon wrote: I've been a member at CP for a year and half
meh!
Give me back my welcome!
Apart of that... true true and true... specially the part in which you say that you are spending lots of time here... 
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gavindon wrote: So yeah I'm in waaay over my head but have managed to get projects done and they work
You may be in the deep end, but at least you're swimming!
Jack of all trades ~ Master of none.
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gavindon wrote: When I ask a question it might seem simple or maybe even stupid to some of you guys
I, for one, see a huge difference between ignorance and stupidity. If you can show that you've at least used a debugger to step through some code (ie, "I get this odd error message from api function X"), and done a smidgeon of research, then you'll find people here falling over to help you.
I was in your shoes a while back - some of were in them longer ago...
Iain.
I am one of "those foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs". Yay me!
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Well count me as truly ignorant then. I've had two years of school. Yes I excelled compared to everybody else in my classes, that's not necessarily saying a lot. I had very basic instruction in c++, even less in vb and basic in java. Then data structures and that pretty much covers the programming for my degree.
Since I graduated in December, I've taught myself more in asp.net with c# code behind than I learned about all the others combined in school. But I'm still ignorant as heck.. And at 40 years old, its not as easy as it would have been years ago.. lol
I'm learning fast though and appreciate your guys comments to this thread. I will surely be a regular here on CP from now on and as I said further down, I hope to be able to contribute myself one day in the not to distant future.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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<blockquote class="FQ"><div class="FQA">gavindon wrote:</div>And at 40 years old, its not as easy as it would have been years ago.</blockquote>
Imagine what I feel like at my age (68) trying to learn ASP.NET MVC and C#, at home, on my own. I just started to understand MVC 1 and then MVC 2 was released. Having got to grips with that, MVC 3 is released. The same is true with EF Code First with CTP3 then CTP4 then CTP5. Each of these releases meant a revisit to code you had already written.
I've been used to Fortran, Visual Basic, MS Access VBA and other languages where everything could be read up in a couple of manuals. With ASP.NET these days, I bet there is not a single User that understands the complete language. Everyone finds the part that works for them. It may not be the most efficient but it works.
The problem then occurs when you try and get help via forums. Someone answers the question using techniques you do not understand. The trouble is, it is never a complete solution. They assume that you have at least some understanding of the technique, which more often than not, you don't. A lot of the time, most?, the documentation can't be found in a single place. You have search in a blog here, a forum there, to find answers. And I find the Microsoft help system totally incomprehensible. It might be the perfect definition of a class and its objects, but to someone trying to find out how to use the function, forget it!
And then there's the wife asking if you're going to help her in the garden. But I don't think I'll go there.
Still, I shall plug on and try and master it.
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Understand the wife thing. Mine is pretty understanding though since when I started school we had a nice family discussion(also have 3 teenage boys) about what it was going to take for me to do this and the sacrifices everyone would have to make. However wives being what they are.. I still occasionally get the questions about when I'm going to do my chores..
My disadvantage compared to you is that up until 5 years ago I had never even owned a pc. I had no previous experience with anything to lean on so its been cold turkey all the way. But the challenge has been great, I've had many many moments of noob pride about "looky looky I made it work!!!!! " that gets my wifes eyes rolled up in the back of her head because she has zero clue what I'm blathering about.
But I am greatly enjoying the challenge in moving forward and will learn to be a real programmer yet.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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Just to give you hope... I gave my Dad his first computer when he was 76. After a couple of years playing around with it, he decided he was going to learn Office. So he went to college (1 day, 1 night) for two years and learnt Office, including Access. At 80, he decided he wanted to know more about the machine itself, so he did another 2 years at college learning how to build them. He now goes round maintaining his mates' machines. He's now 88!
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No matter how long you've been doing this, you'll always be a noob at something. You're aiming for a dynamic list of moving targets that refresh themselves on a regular interval.
I also find myself in the same position as you... I'm the only developer at my company. I suggest highly that you do some arm twisting and have your company take some money out of their training budget for you. Then, subscribe to an online training service that allows you to ask questions in a forum.
I recommend PluralSight: http://www.pluralsight-training.net/microsoft/olt/Courses.aspx[^]
That way, you have great examples and a forum that full time paid professionals monitor to help you over the hurdles. Its hard being a lone-ranger developer even when you know everything. There is much value in bouncing ideas (design, functionality, etc) off another person so I feel your pain.
Joel Palmer
Data Integration Engineer
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gavindon wrote: I am the ONLY developer at this company . seriously not one other person who even knows what code looks like. I have to design, write the code, build the database etc etc..
Although I have more experience than you, I am in EXACTLY the same position. And, even with experience, it's not a whole lot easier, let me tell you... The worst part is definitely not having anyone to talk to. Many programming problems can often be solved just by sitting down with people and talking it over. It's impossible for one person to know everything, and I really miss having a team.
Of course, the other big issue, since no one understands code, they also don't understand how much WORK it takes to get everything done! I've seriously been given whole webpage campaigns only days before they were due to be released! 'Here, here is a brochure. We need a multi-page website done base on this. Oh, and we need it in 3 days, because that's when the program starts.' (true story) 
But, on the bright side...the amount I have learned by being forced to do everything is huge. In just a couple of years, I feel I have learned more than the previous 5-6 years. So, if you can keep from going insane (I've come close!  ), you really can learn a lot.
When writing code, don't forget to account for Ewoks!
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agreed with all of the above, including the learning part. I am learning things that I would likely not get if i was in a team simply because I am having to do it all. Even though its tough leaning on google and no other programmers to bash ideas around with.
What makes it worse is I'm also the IT support for over 70 store locations, The dang boss seems unable to comprehend that when I spend 6 hours removing viruses from pcs out in the field that that is 6 hours I'm NOT writing code.
So in addition to being the entire programming team, I'm the DB admin, designer, developer, network admin, sharepoint developer, sharepoint admin, etc.. you get the picture. If it has anything to do with a pc or the network or software, I'm supposed to be god. That includes being the go between for our 3rd party POS software... I DREAD the days they do updates. All of this with being a whopping 4 months out of school with an associates degree and no prior experience.
I spend a LOT of time researching on the internet for various issues. But so far have managed to survive and keep the boat from sinking for those 4 months now.
lol but hey I always liked a challenge.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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gavindon wrote: well I didn't even want to be associated with even Typing those words..
There's a difference between being a newb and being a douche
gavindon wrote: I now work at my first job(in IT) and managed to land a job where I am the ONLY developer at this company .
Been there. Going from simple college projects to being responsible for getting code running in production, in a new language no less, is quite a challenge. It's a tough road but it's the fast track to being a senior level dev. At times I felt like I learned more in a day than some of my peers at other jobs learned in a month. The harder you work for the knowledge the stronger you'll retain it and the better you'll be at applying it.
Don't worry too much about the 'gimme code' folk they're probably not going to get very far.
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OK. I'm not sure who voted you down for this, but I'll compensate for that. It's refreshing to see somebody come along with the attitude of wanting to learn the old fashioned way; by actually writing code and trying things out. I've no doubt that you will be a welcome addition to CP, so welcome, I bid you welcome to life inside the electric circus.
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Thank you and I look forward to the day I can actually contribute something to this great website. So far I mainly keep shut since I feel my advice is shaky at best and probably dead wrong at worst.. lol Its tough changing careers at my age but I enjoy it and love the challenge.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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Well you are American (like me) so you probably suck at puns (like me) but I'm sure you know a few crap jokes so you can contribute that way! 
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more than a few.
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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Gavindon: I have been at it for years and still feel very uncertain when *giving* advice, so join the club. Obviously you are not a 'kodz-pleez' grabber, so don't worry about it. If someone does supply code, ask as many questions as you can as to WHY they did it THIS way. I find you get some amazing insights from why a programmer chose a certain direction, maybe as much as from the code itself.
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Not sure why you've been voted down unless it was by a tyro who only knows how to say 'give me codez plzzzzz urgentzzzz'. Take a 5.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." Red Adair.
nils illegitimus carborundum
me, me, me
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Sounds like you've got a great attitude toward learning. Everyone is a noob at some point. In a field like ours, everyone is a noob at multiple points as technology changes. Asking for someone to point you in the right direction when you just can't see it is to be expected, but a little research before asking is also to be expected. Asking for a complete solution is where it gets annoying and disheartening to the answerers.
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Noob is something you will grow out of, given time.
A***hole Troll is something that will never change.
So be thankful you are the former, and not the latter!
------------------------------------
I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
CCC Link[ ^]
Trolls[ ^]
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What if I'm an a**hole without the troll part? can i still make it? hehe
Programming is a race between programmers trying to build bigger and better idiot proof programs, and the universe trying to build bigger and better idiots, so far... the universe is winning.
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