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Dee-licious.
Love fortune cookies. My wife bought me two bags of them.
And a tin of Pirouettes.
Pirouettes gone, one bag of cookies gone. On the last hole in my belt.
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From today's news letter
http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?927[^]
I don't see what is wrong with using Lorem Ipsum text as a placeholder. At design time I very seldom have actual text from a client.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Well I interpreted it as saying that if you have the data, why not design against it. If you do not have data obviously you have to resort to something made up such as lorem ipsum. I have the luxury of having data most of the times and also I have found that stakeholdersrespond and grasp better if they see actual data.
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Yes, at some point you use and show actual data, but users never know what they really want until they see something.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Mark Nischalke wrote: users never know what they really want until they see something.
Exactly! That is why I have found that if I show them Lorem Ipsum they get more confused. I have also seen that a simple working prototype goes a long way in helping them understand what they want. Building a prototype takes time, but is well worth the effort. For instance, I am working on a charting portal. I have the luxury of having all the data. I opted for showing a working prototype as to how I think the portal should function. The risk is that I may have to throw it all away if users do not like it but if they do like it I can convert that too a real application. Of course, traditional thinking is that prototypes should be thrown away but I do not think it holds true anymore in the era of rad tools.
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote: show them Lorem Ipsum they get more confused
I whole heartily disagree. At design time they need to be focused on design and layout, not content
The danger of using actual data in a prototype is everyone thinking it is a real application and not understanding why additional time needs to be spent to create the "real" app. Has happened more than once.
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Eventually, what matters is what works for you and for your users.
The users whom I work with think better if they look at something functional. Almost in all the design first situations, I had to re-work (sometimes several times).
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Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote: The risk is that I may have to throw it all away
I think you suffer a great risk of the users liking what they see, and expecting you to deliver it immediately - after all, you've just shown it to them!
Iain.
I am one of "those foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs". Yay me!
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Iain Clarke, Warrior Programmer wrote: t risk of the users liking what they see
That's a nice problem to have.
Iain Clarke, Warrior Programmer wrote: deliver it immediately
As a matter of fact they do start using it immediately and the development proceeds in iterations.
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I agree.
-----------------------------
Just along for the ride.
-----------------------------
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The article looks like cr*p to me.
You know what they say: "Lorum Ipsum is dead; long live Lorum Ipsum!" 
V.
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It's "ivory tower" stuff again. Obviously when you have actual data you use it. Until then, you want to test with something, and Lorum Ipsum has the advantage of being content neutral and thus not offensive to anybody.
Typical idiot who doesn't have to work in the real world...
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
Manfred R. Bihy: "Looks as if OP is learning resistant."
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OriginalGriff wrote: the advantage of being content neutral and thus not offensive to anybody.
Whoaw I'm not the only one with this problem 
V.
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OriginalGriff wrote: thus not offensive to anybody.
Aw screw that PC stuff - just keep some text from a Penthouse Forum letter and use that! To hell with all this fancy latin crap!
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It's not PC I have to worry about - before Ipsum Lorem I used to type in whatever went through my head. Sexual proclivities of various sales and marketing robots, mainly... 
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
Manfred R. Bihy: "Looks as if OP is learning resistant."
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Abso-bally-letly.
Especially in web-design, the content will always come after the container. You need to know how puce on teal is going to look, so give it some Lorum Ipsum. the advantage of using that, rather then anything else, is that the [re]viewer will ignore the content as soon as they see those opening two words.
Aside, I once had a demo screen up for an [internal] design with text:
"Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, [Redacted] is a w___er, [...]"
No-one spotted it until the end when I pointed it out.
And yes all agreed that [Redacted] had indeed those tendencies.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H
OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre
I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: the advantage of using that, rather then anything else, is that the [re]viewer will ignore the content as soon as they see those opening two words.
In that case, why not use a text 'Greeking' method to simply give the impression of text.
Henry Minute
Do not read medical books! You could die of a misprint. - Mark Twain
Girl: (staring) "Why do you need an icy cucumber?"
“I want to report a fraud. The government is lying to us all.”
I wouldn't let CG touch my Abacus!
When you're wrestling a gorilla, you don't stop when you're tired, you stop when the gorilla is.
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Because it's pretty easy to cut+paste Lorum Ipsum Ad Nasueam
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H
OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre
I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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Henry Minute wrote: simply give the impression of text
You mean like Code Project forum questions 
I know the language. I've read a book. - _Madmatt
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Yeah, it's a little extreme, but I've had to correct designs that were built with incorrect assumptions about content length and dimensions. It's also a PITA when you get the real content put in and you get a bunch of changes, "well, this really needs to go over here", "that really works better on the other page", etc.
Not so much of an issue when you put simple versions in production quickly and expect those kinds of changes. However, if you are working in bigger chunks it can create a lot of churn.
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I second that.
I also get questions about the text when I use Lorem Ipsum - I lately used other texts (eg the theme text from "Captain Powers and the soldiers of the future". That text is obviously nonsense and therefor better.
I never finish anyth...
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Mark Nischalke wrote: I don't see what is wrong with using Lorem Ipsum text as a placeholder. At design time I very seldom have actual text from a client.
Agreed and if you do it is likely to change anyway.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Kierkegaard, Søren
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meh
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader." - John Quincy Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering” - Wernher von Braun
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Try this[^].
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
Drink. Get drunk. Fall over - P O'H
OK, I will win to day or my name isn't Ethel Crudacre! - DD Ethel Crudacre
I cannot live by bread alone. Bacon and ketchup are needed as well. - Trollslayer
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb - they're often *students*, for heaven's sake - Terry Pratchett
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