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AnswerRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Eddy Vluggen11-Nov-22 14:34
professionalEddy Vluggen11-Nov-22 14:34 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen12-Nov-22 8:44
trønderen12-Nov-22 8:44 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz12-Nov-22 9:58
mveGerry Schmitz12-Nov-22 9:58 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Eddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 11:56
professionalEddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 11:56 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz13-Nov-22 11:21
mveGerry Schmitz13-Nov-22 11:21 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen13-Nov-22 14:50
trønderen13-Nov-22 14:50 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell14-Nov-22 7:06
jschell14-Nov-22 7:06 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen14-Nov-22 10:57
trønderen14-Nov-22 10:57 
jschell wrote:
trønderen wrote:I frequently get the feeling that we programmers actively want our code to be unintelligible for the customer...I think we ought to.
Rather creative quoting you are doing there! I do not thing we ought to make "our code to be unintelligible for the customer"!
jschell wrote:
It has been tried. On large scale and small. And it continues to be tried. But it does not work.
I know of lots of end user 'macro' languages that exist in different language varieties; even system functions are localized. People with no programming background are capable of adapting applications to their own needs without having to learn English. It certainly works in the small.

I do not know of any compiler storing the code as a semi-parsed tree of abstract tokens, applying a concrete syntax only in the presentation for a human developer. I am simply unfamiliar with any other large-scale failed try to localize any tool, whether programming tool or tool for other application areas, where a significant deployment of localized versions was pulled back and replaced with English language versions.

If you can point to one example of failure: One failed project does not imply that the principle has no merit. If you are eager to 'prove' that English Is The Answer, you may of course justify you attitude by referring to the failure. Otherwise, you may study the failure to learn why it failed, and what could be done in better ways.

An example: The first release of localized Excel formulas did localize function names. In multi-language corporations, you could not share a spreadsheet between those working in an English context with those in a Norwegian context - the function names from the 'other' language were not found. In your approach, it seems like the proper solution would be to force everyone back to English. Rather, a later Excel version replaced the internal representation of system functions (which was by the localized name) with an abstract reference, sort of like 'built-in 37', which was displayed as 'average' in English versions, 'gjennomsnitt' in Norwegian versions. (In a spreadsheet, 'variables' are referenced by row and column, so the problem of localized variable names does not occur.)
jschell wrote:
it could even be possible to discuss the code with a customer who is not fluent in English!
My old mother could not distinguish between a PC and an electric heater, but she was fluent in English. When I started programming, in the old Pascal days, she was curious about it, and I spent some time on taking her through a number of Pascal program. She was really fascinated by the orderly, disciplined way of approaching a problem and building a solution! She never programmed a line herself, but she was fully capable of following my walkthrough of a moderately sized Pascal program. But then: Pascal was far more readable than today's C++!

I also had a strongly visually handicapped daughter and had to write her a few support programs. She was at the outset (age from 9-10 years) curious about daddy's work, and got really excited when I was making something for her. Discussing how to structure the solution with her was very simple, and she could see how I shaped that into program functions (even though she never coded a single line herself).

In my professional work, I have been discussing topics like data flow in the city administration and library organization, all with non-computer people. I have been teaching macro programming in an office automation system to users who had never seen an electrical typewriter (so my analogy from the on/off switch on the terminal to the on/off switch of a typewriter failed...). I have been teaching '101 Programming' to people who had never before sat down at a computer (this was around 1990). In other words: I have long experience in making non-computer people understand a computer-systematic way of organizing the user's data structures, breakdown of the total problem into well defined, orderly tasks, discussing alternate solution methods.

I know that users with domain knowledge and experience are very good at understand even tiny little details in a computer solution, if you are willing to listen to them when they tell you something and try to talk in a similar language when you explain your proposals to them. And you are prepared for your proposals being exactly that: Proposals, that the domain expert may have objection to. You are no sort of god, even if you are the one mastering the compiler.
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell28-Nov-22 11:17
jschell28-Nov-22 11:17 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 8:48
mveGerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 8:48 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell28-Nov-22 11:20
jschell28-Nov-22 11:20 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz28-Nov-22 17:59
mveGerry Schmitz28-Nov-22 17:59 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell29-Nov-22 7:12
jschell29-Nov-22 7:12 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz29-Nov-22 8:12
mveGerry Schmitz29-Nov-22 8:12 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell30-Nov-22 7:42
jschell30-Nov-22 7:42 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Eddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 11:53
professionalEddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 11:53 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen13-Nov-22 14:56
trønderen13-Nov-22 14:56 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 9:03
mveGerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 9:03 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Eddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 12:04
professionalEddy Vluggen12-Nov-22 12:04 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen13-Nov-22 15:03
trønderen13-Nov-22 15:03 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Gerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 9:09
mveGerry Schmitz15-Nov-22 9:09 
JokeRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
Richard Deeming14-Nov-22 23:40
mveRichard Deeming14-Nov-22 23:40 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
jschell14-Nov-22 6:46
jschell14-Nov-22 6:46 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
k505414-Nov-22 7:45
mvek505414-Nov-22 7:45 
GeneralRe: Aide pour un programme langage c Pin
trønderen14-Nov-22 9:33
trønderen14-Nov-22 9:33 

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